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Ann Théato, International Psychic Medium and Spiritual Tutor, investigates psychic development, mediumship techniques, and paranormal science, so that you can come to understand your own innate psychic ability and expand your knowledge, whilst learning to develop a curious mind.




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This Week’s Episode

“Can we please normalise difficult stories, because I really think as humans we could learn so much more from each other if we could share those journeys.”   Marsha Vanwynsberghe


PM 102

In this compelling episode, we have the privilege of hosting Marsha Vanwynsberghe, a renowned author, speaker, publisher, and master NLP trainer with 25 years in kinesiology and personal training.

Marsha’s transformative journey transcends physical fitness, delving into profound emotional shifts and navigating through family crises, substance abuse challenges, financial setbacks, and health issues. With remarkable resilience, she shares invaluable life lessons, unveiling her strength amidst adversity.

Join us for a deep dive into Marsha’s expertise in NLP, exploring the mind-body connection and gaining insights into personal transformation. This episode is a testament to empowerment, resilience, and the wisdom gained from life’s intricate tapestry.


You’ll Learn

  • How to understand the subconscious mind
  • How to stay resilient in the face of diverse challenges
  • Why sharing one’s lessons benefits others
  • Why 90% of our daily thoughts are negative
  • What is Neurolinguistic Programming (NLP),
  • How NLP contributes to personal development
  • The benefits of Emotional Freedom Technique
  • The importance of celebrating

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Episode 102 Resources

Here are some resources referred to in Episode 102 which you may find helpful.

Marsha Vanwynsberghe – Instagram 

Marsha Vanwynsberghe – Facebook

Marsha Vanwynsberghe – Twitter

Marsha Vanwynsberghe – Website

Marsha Vanwynsberghe  LinkedIn 

Marsha Vanwynsberghe – YouTube  

Book   – When She Stopped Asking Why 

Podcast – Own Your Choices Own Your Life

Psychic Matters – YouTube

Thanks for listening.

Why not share it now?

Or ask a question over on Psychic Matters! Podcast Facebook page


VO: Psychic Matters with Ann Théato. The top ranked spirituality podcast.


Marsha: It was 12 years ago, roughly, when we started dealing with teen substance abuse. And I went the route of trying to find answers, yet not knowing how to navigate the shame, the criticism, the judgments, I mean, really at the core of it, our story scared people. It wasn’t that they were trying to be cruel. It was scary and it was too close to home because if it could happen to us, then it could happen to anybody.


Marsha: Can we please normalise difficult stories, because I really think as humans, we could learn so much more from each other if we could share those journeys


Ann: We deal as psychics and mediums, certainly as mediums with people who are grieving loved ones in the spirit world, but also people grieve for all kinds of things. They grieve for relationships that never happened. They grieve for relationships that did happen that they’ve lost


Marsha: We always hear fill your cup first. Well, she said you fill your cup to overflow. The overflow goes in the saucer. The saucer is what you feed others with. You don’t feed people from your cup, you feed them from your saucer and you can do an incredible job today, but tomorrow your cup is still empty. Every day it’s your job to fill your cup.


Ann: Before we get into this episode, I’d like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you to understand the psychic mind, mediumship communication, paranormal science, and how it all works. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It’s incredible to see all of your comments and I’m just getting started. I can’t wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you for subscribing. It means the world to me.

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Ann: Hello, hello!  My name is Ann Théato and welcome to episode 102 of the Psychic Matters Podcast!

Well, what is this week’s news from the Psychic Matters Studio?

You may know, by now I have a new podcast YouTube channel for this podcast – type Psychic Matters in the YouTube search bar – and you will easily find me.  And a reminder, that every single episode from 2024, will now be watchable on YouTube, so not only can you listen to the audio version on all your favourite podcast platforms, but you can now watch my guests as they speak in the Psychic Matters studio. So do press the subscribe button so you don’t miss any of the content!

In other news, it’s been a busy couple of weeks, I’ve been out in London – on the South Bank of the river Thames, attending a fascinating British tradition of celebrating 12th Night, with a very special wassailingsession. I did of course, take along my trusty video camera to take footage of the event and this will also appear on my YouTube channel very soon.

What is wassailing, I hear you ask?  Well traditionally, it takes place on the twelfth night after Christmas and involves a visit to a nearby orchard for singing, dancing, drinking and general merrymaking.  What happened on my day out was, we gathered outside the Globe Theatre on London’s South Bank, and to begin the celebrations, we watched as the extraordinary Holly Man, the Winter guise of the Green Man (from our Great British pub signs, pagan myths and folklore), who is a super tall human being by the way, and he was decked in fantastic green garb and evergreen foliage, and he was piped over the River Thames, alongside the devil Beelzebub, accompanied by some amazing musicians, dressed in spectacular medieval costumes.

Then the Holly Man arrived amongst a big crowd of us, all standing outside the Globe Theatre, and he was led led by a troop of actors known as the Bankside Mummers and an incredible London Beadle – a sort of Bellringer with a massively loud voice who made all the announcements.  The Holly Man then does something called ‘bringing in the green’ where he toasts or ‘wassails’ the people, the River Thames & all who sail on her and then the Globe Theatre (an old tradition, blessing the actors and encouraging good growth). 

The actors or the Mummers  then processed to the Bankside Jetty, followed by the assembled crowd and there they performed the traditional ‘freestyle’ St. George Folk Combat Play, featuring hilarious characters such as Turkey Sniper, Clever Legs, the Old ‘Oss and many other crazy characters, all dressed in spectacular colourful costumes.

Honestly, it was a sight to behold and the play is full of wild verse and boisterous action, a time-honoured part of the season recorded since the Crusades.

Tiny little Cakes were then distributed to the crowd at the end of the play which have a bean and a pea hidden in two of them. Those from the crowd who find them are hailed King and Queen for the day and hilariously crowned with ceremony.

They then ‘dance’ the people along the Thames Path, through the remarkable Dirty Lane to the renovated Soap Yard in Borough Yards, just behind Borough Market for Dancing, Storytelling, Singing and for tying wishes on the Kissing Wishing Tree.

Such a brilliant day and I loved every minute.  I always do and I’ve been going for years.

So again, don’t forget to subscribe to my YouTube Channel – you won’t want to miss out on my Wassailing video when it comes out!

And so, to this week’s exciting podcast.  Get ready to immerse yourself, dear listener.  I really hope you love listening to this episode, as much as I have enjoyed creating it for you.

Ann: Today, I am honoured to be joined in the studio by Marsha Vanwynsberghe, who is a prolific author, speaker, publisher, and master NLP trainer and practitioner. Marsha has dedicated the last 25 years of her life to the field of kinesiology and personal training, where she’s not only transformed bodies, but also helps people make profound emotional changes in their lives. Her clients didn’t just focus on physical fitness. They delved deep into their thoughts, beliefs, habits, and actions. But that is not all. Marsha has faced a unique set of challenges in the last few years, navigating through life altering family crises with substance abuse affecting her two teenagers from a very young age. However, through this journey, she’s learned invaluable lessons and discovered a reservoir of strength within herself. Marsha has faced financial and business setbacks. She’s battled serious health issues and grappled with overwhelming feelings of frustration and isolation. And in the midst of it all, she made a bold decision to share her story and the lessons she’s learned with the world. Today, we’ll be diving deep into Marsha’s journey of personal transformation and resilience and gleaning some of her expert knowledge in the field of NLP, Neurolinguistic Programming. Welcome Marsha. It’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the show.

Marsha: Thank you so much for having me, Ann, I’m thrilled to have this conversation with you.


Ann: It’s great that you’ve made time, I know you’re a busy, busy lady. We really, really appreciate your time, Marsha. And of course, we know your journey is really remarkable and I can’t wait for our listeners to hear much more from you. So, to start with, perhaps you could share a little bit about your personal background and what inspired you to focus on storytelling and empowerment in the work that you do?


Marsha: It’s funny because if I really think back, I was the kid that loved true stories, sports stories, overcoming, a lot of my friends would be watching cartoons and I was watching stories of biographies and I was always fascinated by people who overcame really difficult circumstances. So, I think that was something that always did inspire me. And then I went into the field of kinesiology and I worked there for 27 years, literally, you know, helping people to learn how to walk again, how to find their strength to overcome fear of movement because fear is a very powerful emotion. We know that. And that’s what I spent my time doing. And then it really, it was over the last, it was 12 years ago, roughly, when we started dealing with teen substance abuse. And I went the route of trying to find answers, yet not knowing how to navigate the shame, the criticism, the judgments, I mean, really at the core of it, our story scared people. It wasn’t that they were trying to be cruel. It was scary and it was too close to home because if it could happen to us, then it could happen to anybody and nobody wants to believe things like that. And so, during those years of navigating, what do I do with this? There was a lot of things that happened that led me into this space of wanting to share my story. And when I did that, I started to, you know, very small groups, small stages, et cetera. But what was happening was, I was finding so many people who would stop me and say, that’s my story. I had it for like 20, 30, 40 years, I’ve never told a soul. And I was blown away by the amount of people that my story connected to. And let me just paraphrase that for a second. They didn’t even have to walk my story. They also recognize the emotions and the experiences and the feelings. But we don’t have to walk somebody’s exact story in order to understand where they are and what they’re walking through. And so, through that process, I started to get really fascinated by stories. I came back and circled around again, and it was like, all right, well, if this is what we’re walking through, how do I find my way through? And I couldn’t find a lot of resources available. I couldn’t find a lot of people talking about difficult stories. And through the process, I ended up deciding to write my own book, called When She Stopped Asking Why, and during that time, I had the download of, I think I want to start a podcast because, I felt so compelled to, can we please normalize difficult stories? Because I really think as humans, we could learn so much more from each other if we could share those journeys and learn how to share those journeys. And through the process, especially over the last few years, I mean, this is what I do full time now. I have had so many people reach out and say, but how do you share a difficult story? They’re like wanting to learn how, I believe there’s a way no matter what the story. And so, I, I think we’re all connected by stories. I think we’re all connected. We’re far more connected and alike than what we think we are. And we’re walking through a lot of challenges, trauma experiences, and we could actually learn a lot from each other, as opposed to hiding in those stories.


Ann: Yeah, I mean, that’s really makes me think very deeply actually about the stories that I hold within myself. And perhaps we’re in a society where we are expected to get on with things. We’re expected not to cry or weep. We’re expected to cope. We want to be seen to be succeeding in some way, not necessarily huge, great acclaim and achievements, but just succeeding every day in life, getting out of bed, having a wash and doing our normal life. And sometimes we can’t do that, especially if we’re grieving for things. people who listen to this podcast, we deal as psychics and mediums, certainly as mediums with people who are grieving loved ones in the spirit world, but also people grieve for all kinds of things. They grieve for relationships that never happened. They grieve for relationships that did happen that they’ve lost. Marsha, go back a little over your personal experience here and maybe you could, if you wouldn’t mind, share a little bit of your personal story with us.


Marsha: Absolutely. I love that you shared grieving because that was something that I had to allow myself to do.  I was the perfectionist fighter most of my life. I was the kid who grew up really fast, really early and was independent and was seen as like, that’s, a badge of honour, we don’t have to worry about her because she’s got it figured out. But that also meant I rarely asked for help. I did not want to be seen as asking for help because for whatever reason the badge of that, meant weak, and that’s how I subconsciously believed it to be. And so Through like, through this experience. I mean, if I even back it up a little bit more, um, I went through tremendous health challenges, over the last 20 years where I had a partial molar pregnancy. And a partial molar pregnancy starts as a baby, but it grows into a mass and we went through, losing that child at six months and then going through monthly testing, seven, eight surgeries, hysterectomy at a young age, and a lot of challenges that happened right before we started to deal with teen substance abuse. So here I am battling, you know, health and, and I work in the health field. This is what I do for a living. So, it was a very weird time to navigate all of this. And I still had this belief that I have to do it on my own until I couldn’t. Like, it was just really at a point of recognizing that when we carry that badge of, I have to do this on my own, you block out anything that’s available. Two things happen. Well, more than two, but you block out anything that’s available, people, resources, et cetera. And you actually block out the ability to receive, which means yourself worth is just going to continue to plummet because you’re not allowing yourself to receive any of the support. So, I believe that life forced me to be in a position where I actually had to ask for and allow myself to receive support. So, I, yes, these years with my kids, with my health, like they have been beyond challenging and a couple of my really good friends have said, I don’t know what soul contract you signed when you came to earth, but you signed something huge. And I feel like I did. And so. Yes, I’m stubborn and I keep going, but I believe that my story is meant for more and I believe it can do more and that has this one piece that’s got me through this. But the interesting thing, another interesting thing is, is that I spent years as that fighter, perfectionist, like I can do this on my own, to now living life very differently in a sense that I ask for help. I don’t stay in a position of feeling alone. I do reach out. I have a beautiful group of people that I have allowed into my space as well. again, being the pusher and fighter for years now, I am so curious about my mindset, what my brain is thinking, what my subconscious is, how to move through emotions, how to feel them, so it’s like taking years of a masculine approach and now all of a sudden, it’s like, this is a feminine approach. There’s nothing wrong with it. It’s just very different. And my life, I’m grateful that the lessons that I walked through challenged me to grow and become somebody different. Cause I really do believe deep down that old version of me was never going to make it. I actually don’t think she, I think that was a turning point asking for help, asking for support, listening to the downloads was a turning point for me, where it was like, I have to listen and I have to learn how to do life differently.


Ann: It fascinates me, Marsha. It really, really does and I think probably a lot of people listening to this podcast, especially those that work, as I say, in psychic and mediumship, we’ve had many, many traumatic experiences in our lives, which leads us to help other people in this way. Seemingly, this is what has happened to you and hopefully doesn’t continue to happen with the trauma, but your work moves forward because of what you’ve experienced in the past. At what point do you think? You had reached before you said, okay, I can’t do this. When did you know you really needed to get some help and assistance from outside of your own resource?


Marsha: I, I think I’m going to take it to a point where I remember that moment on the floor, right? A lot of us have that moment on the floor where it’s like this, I can’t do this anymore. My way isn’t working. I think there has to come a point where we recognize that our way, our choices are not working, right? They’re not working because I was literally doing everything I could possibly think, we had counselling, we had support, we had all of these things. I was walking around like this little student with a checklist that my counsellor said to do. And I’m so proud because I did everything she asked. And she’s like, yes, good job. And I’m like, but I still have all the problems. I don’t understand what I’m supposed to do with this. because nothing I was doing was changing their behaviour, nothing. And actually,


Ann: This is the behaviour of your children.


Marsha: Yeah. And] in fact, I would say it amplified, the more I tried to push and force and make change happen, the more it amplified, what we were walking through. And so, I remember that. And the counsellor saying, it’s because it’s not your problem to solve. And I’m like, what am I supposed to do with that? Like, what do you mean it’s not my problem to solve? I’m a parent, like, how can I just turn my back on? And it, you think you’re turning your back on others. When you take time and make yourself a priority, you think you’re not doing a good job. And she said to me that if they ever come back to you, you need to be a springboard for them. And she goes, I’m sorry, but right now you’re a pile of quicksand. You can’t even take care of yourself. And I know that sounds harsh, but I actually needed to hear that. And that was exactly, she was right. And so that, coupled with the moment where life was literally blowing up, I collapsed on the floor and cried like I’ve never cried, right? That primal scream cry. And I remember saying, if you help me through this, then I will do everything I can to support anyone down the road, because I don’t know what to do next. And I heard a voice as clear as could be, and it said, stop. And I’m like, stop what? Like it was, and it wasn’t my voice. Stop what you’re doing. And I’m like, stop what? Like, I don’t understand. And it was that I had to stop trying to fix, manage, control everyone else around me, and I had to take that energy and put it back on myself and I had to let go to what was going to happen next, very scary moment, but at the same time, crystal clear, so crystal clear that it was time for me to make myself a priority and listen to what I needed to give myself a fighting chance. Like, I didn’t have a fighting chance in the position that I was in. And it’s so interesting because when you’re in this kind of, I’m going to say it a co-dependent relationship, cause that’s literally what it was. When you’re in that kind of co-dependent relationship and all of a sudden you cut the ties and you take care of yourself, it, it really will disrupt the world. Like it disrupts your inner world because people are like what, why is she not responding? Why is she acting? Why is she not acting? Why is she, why is she doing that? And you have to be so clear that like I’m doing this for me. I am doing this for me. And that’s literally where a lot of my languaging started, even though I didn’t understand what NLP was at the time. It was decades later. It was like I have to change my words and my language and how I’m speaking to myself. And I have to stop saying I’m stuck. No wonder I feel stuck. It’s the only word I ever said is I’m stuck. And so, I had to stop saying those words. And the other things I had to really do is be aware that how many times was I owning someone else’s choices and not owning my own, right? We sit in this blame situation of when they change, my life will change. And ultimately what you’re doing is giving all of your power away and you’re not helping them. And you’re also not helping yourself. And so, when I started to really put language and reframing and pattern interrupt into my day, I was blown away at how I never put any attention back on myself and I only put like a hundred percent, it was actually easier to spend it on everyone else than it was to put it back on myself. That was uncomfortable, but I had to learn how to do that. And when I found myself, I’m like, oh, my choices, wait, that’s not my choice. That’s not my, I’m like, oh my God, what am I doing that’s actually my choice? And that’s where the words came from. Literally my whole languaging of what I say is like owning your choices. That’s where some of those changes started to really come from.


Ann: So, when you say you put the attention back on yourself, what did that look like? Can you give me some concrete examples perhaps of what you were doing and then how you changed it?


Marsha: Absolutely. So, during that time, I spent a lot of time listening to Tony Robbins. And for me, he was instrumental, like instrumentally helpful at that time because I didn’t understand the word state. And when I really started to understand the word state, state is like literally your energy that you’re bringing out into the world. Like that’s what that comes from. I didn’t have any energy; I didn’t have any state. I was like, uh, I just like a pillow. I was doing nothing. And so, I was like, okay, well, what can shift my state? What helps me to shift my state? And so, for me, it was the simplest little things. It was, podcasts, YouTube videos, books, audio books. It was, it was time walking with my dog. It was being outside. It was exercising. It was yoga. It was nutrition starting to move again, starting to feel myself, trying to make sleep a priority, which I mean, if you live through something like that, I don’t know if we slept for three years to be completely honest. cause you don’t have problems from nine to five, right? You don’t. You close. It was. Yeah, you close from five to nine, and so it was very, very chaotic, and so it was those little things, but what I really started to notice, it’s like, okay, when is my state dipping? The second my state dipped, it’s like, okay, back into a podcast, back into a YouTube. It was very external to put it back on myself to help me to shift it. And I say external because I needed external resources to help me because I didn’t have it within me. And so those things had to come in. And then when I started to feel like I’m like, okay, I feel better. I feel better. And then all of a sudden, it’s like, I’m responding differently to chaos in my life. And I would almost take inventory. Oh, that was interesting because analogy that my counsellor used, and I still use it all the time, is that you can either throw fire or sand onto an argument. Well, I was great at throwing fire, like great at throwing fire, reacting, reacting, reacting to everything around me. But what happens when you react is you don’t change the problem and you deplete yourself. And so, as I started to build up my reserves, my energy started to improve. I was responding differently. Then all of a sudden, it’s like, oh, now it’s not taking so much out of me. like you have to build these reserves up. When you’re bone dry, you have to build them up. And if I can just share one thing on self-care, like those are some of the tools that I did early without even understanding brain subconscious reprogramming. But one of the things that I heard Lisa Nichols say probably almost a decade ago, and it was life changing for me, is the cup and the saucer.  We always hear fill your cup first. Well, she said you fill your cup to overflow. The overflow goes in the saucer. The saucer is what you feed others with. You don’t feed people from your cup, you feed them from your saucer and you can do an incredible job today, but tomorrow your cup is still empty. Every day it’s your job to fill your cup. And so, I would even sit in this space of ownership, okay, that’s not my choice. wait, what have I done to fill my cup today? I’m like, oh yeah, I’ve done nothing. No wonder I’m feeling this way. So that was just this constant, inventory rechecking in with myself just to give myself a fighting chance. It wasn’t about, oh, I hope I thrive. no, no. How can I make it through today? How do I make it through today so that I can do the next day and the next day and the next day? And I think that in a way, that’s a blessing that I had to go micro into days as opposed to. thinking big picture because people say what are you going to do for Christmas? Or what are you going to do next month for whatever? I don’t, today’s Tuesday. we’re literally just doing Tuesday today. I don’t know. I don’t even think that far ahead. I think that’s a blessing that I had to think and learn that way. So those are some of the things that I had to do, but then recognizing that every day that cup it’s empty again, no matter how good of a job I did yesterday, the cup is still empty again. And it’s my cup. It’s not anyone else’s cup. So, it’s my responsibility to fill it.


Ann: I love that analogy, the cup and saucer. It’s, it’s brilliant.


Marsha: It stayed with me for, for a decade. It’s so good.


Ann: It’s really brilliant. And Marsha, what I would say is, just to explore that one little, tiny bit more, is when we’re suffering and we’re not in the most positive, state of mind, we can think, right, I’m going to do this. I’m going to watch a podcast. I’m going to listen to Marsha. She said, watch podcasts, do this, get yourself out of your, well, you didn’t say this, but I’m paraphrasing and making up that you said it, get ourselves out of the pitying state, more into the more positive state things that we can do. But my question to you is the momentum. How do we keep it up? Because I can do that for a while when I’m in despair and then I go, oh, it’s so much more comfortable to not do that and be in despair.


Marsha: It’s a great question. And I’m super real and vulnerable. And I really like to paint the picture that this did not happen overnight. It was not like, let me listen to a couple of podcasts, I feel better and life is better. Not even at all. Not at all. It was stacking. You’ve got to give yourself a chance to stack wins. And when you can start to stack wins and you feel better, you respond differently. I think what also happens then is that your self worth and value start to increase. And when that happens, it’s like, okay, I know how this feels. I like this feeling. How do I get back to this feeling? And that meant that many days I didn’t do it right. And I would stop and go, what is wrong with me today? Why am I behaving this way? Why am I like, wait a minute, what have I done for myself today? Oh, nothing. Absolutely nothing. And here I am again, back into the position. So, understanding how our subconscious mind works, if I can just share one little bit on this. I think it’s really important. Our conscious mind is responsible for 5 percent of our thoughts, our beliefs, our actions and what we’re doing. The conscious mind is the one that, puts the vision board up and makes the plan to work out to do the things We need the conscious mind. There’s nothing wrong with that. But subconsciously, that’s where we hold all of these pieces of ourselves, all of our limiting beliefs 95 percent of what we hold is from that space. And so, the reason that that’s important is, is that our subconscious mind always wants to keep us safe. and safety might mean don’t do anything. that’s really what it might be, is it’s not doing anything or moving forward. Keep us safe. Keep us in a space. Keep us small because then we don’t have to be hurt or we don’t have to deal with it. And so, the reason I say that and it’s important is because your subconscious mind will always take the path of least resistance. It will always go back to the discomfort that you know, as opposed to the potential of what you don’t know. That what you don’t know actually is scarier than holding on to the despair that you do know. And I think that is just going to come down to a moment of self-awareness of recognizing that there’s nothing wrong with you. Your subconscious mind is just literally choosing the path of least resistance and you have to catch it. So, I say in order to create change, you have to become a master pattern interrupter and catch your own moments of when you’re going back to what you say you don’t want. Because our thoughts are only ever replaying the past or creating the future. That’s all they’re doing. And so, if you find yourself, I mean I lived in the past. I lived in the past. I also lived in the past because the future was scary. I didn’t know what was going to happen and I didn’t know how it was going to roll out with our kids. So that was scary to go to. It was easier to keep replaying the past. That is exactly what your subconscious mind wants to do. And so, in order to create that change, you have to catch your patterns and recognize where are you doing something that’s not serving your future self, where you say you want to go. Even if, if you say you want to create these changes, which is amazing, that’s a great space of ownership. It’s not as simple as standing there and saying an affirmation and, and it happens. I actually don’t believe in a lot of the affirmations, because if your subconscious mind is not on board, you’re just at this constant tug of war with yourself. And so, it’s really doing the things on a daily basis. And then I would encourage you, anybody listening at the end of the day, take inventory. What wins do I have? What, what felt good? What do I want to do more of tomorrow and then continue to do the same thing. But your subconscious mind will always take you back to the discomfort that you know, because it’s easier than what you don’t know.


Ann: Oh, thanks for that explanation. It makes total sense.


Marsha: Nothing wrong with you. Anybody, there’s nothing wrong with you. It’s normal. It’s normal.


Ann: Excellent. Good to know. Marsha, tell us, NLP, you’re a master trainer, master practitioner, what is NLP and how can we use it?


Marsha: It is, it, gosh, it’s, it’s, I’m going to do my very best to explain it. Neuro linguistic programming, it is like the language of the mind, and how we can use the language of our mind, our words, our thoughts, our beliefs, in order to create the results that we desire. And so, that sounds fluffy. It’s not fluffy by any means. It’s actually quite scientific. But when you start to understand how your brain is working, you really get to a space of like, how can I use that to work for me as opposed to against me? We are creatures on a loop of repeat, of negative stories, negative thoughts every single day. So, we have between 60 and 80,000 thoughts a day, 80 to 90 percent of those are negative and 90% are repeated from yesterday. So, if I could just say that again, just like, just for a second. 60 to 80,000 thoughts a day. 90% were repeated from yesterday, and 80 to 90% of those are negative. So we are, we have trapped ourselves in a perpetual Groundhog Day state of negative thoughts and beliefs and so, you might say, okay, well, Marsha, that’s crazy, like I believe in you and I say, that’s great. But if I don’t believe it, it doesn’t matter what you say to me. So, we can have people in our life who pour belief into us, which is amazing. What matters is what do I believe? And so, when it comes down to it, it’s not just about affirmations. You actually have to get to the root of some of those limiting beliefs and the roots of those limiting beliefs actually were planted between like up to the age of seven, they were planted in utero. They were planted in past lives. They were planted in past generations and you can start to work with the subconscious mind. The subconscious mind remembers every single thing. Every single thing that it comes in, we don’t consciously remember it because our brain would literally explode, but we get like 2. 3 million bytes of information every second. So just imagine how much we’re being stimulated every second. We have multiple filters that are deleting, distorting and generalizing what we are seeing at all times. So every thought, every belief is a perception of what you are doing with your filters at that moment in time. That’s why, like, the same thing can happen to me today and it could be like, that’s the end of the world. I can’t cope with that. It can happen tomorrow and I’m like, okay, I’ve got this because my filters are different. And so, understanding how your brain works is really powerful. It’s not working against you. It’s just doing its job. That’s all it’s doing. And so, with NLP, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of different ways and people practice NLP. But the reason I felt called to it was, and we can go into that later if you want, but I felt called to it when I was in the hospital and I was in a point of thinking, like, you’ve got to do things differently Marsha, so this is just not, you can’t push your way through life. you’ve got to find a way. And so, with NLP, the way I’ve learned it, I understood, I was trained in time techniques, hypnosis, EFT tapping. And what that means is, is that with time techniques, you can actually take a client back through their subconscious to release the blocks, the limiting blocks, the limiting decisions of the main emotions. And they are, just one second, anger, fear, shame, guilt, hurt, and there’s one more I’m missing, and I’m missing one. So, what you do is you go through those and you learn how to release them and you’re able to take a lens and see that experience in a different light. And now you can apply those lessons to what you have walked through. Then it comes with subconscious reprogramming. That’s when hypnosis come into place. That’s when tapping come into place. That’s when, we can start to use the tools to program our mind for where we want to go, not where we’ve been. As humans, we resent the parts of ourselves that we feel have not been successful, that have not done what we want to do, the parts that we hold onto shame. And I have believed for a very long time that we have to learn how to love and stop resisting all of those parts of ourselves because they’ve made us who we are. NLP has allowed me to incorporate tools to stop resisting those parts of ourselves and see that it is actually shaped us into who we are today. So it’s a long explanation, but I hope that that gives some insight because we hold on to so much that’s not serving us. We think there’s something wrong with us because we’re not achieving the success that we want. And it really comes down to understanding how your brain works. And it’s literally, it’s just doing its job. It’s not because there’s anything wrong with you.


Ann: What do you reprogramme Marsha then?


Marsha: A ton of repetition. A ton. I do not want to skip over that part and thank you so much for that question because I probably now, like I listen to a hypnosis probably once a day. I listen to subliminals. Subliminals are where you have a message, underneath of music. For example, I will work One to two hours a day. My subconscious is hearing the message. EFT tapping is another way to, it’s like having full body acupuncture to help to get your body and brain in alignment with where you’re going. And it takes a tremendous amount of repetition. And I do those things every day. And I still, there’s some days I do even more than that. But that’s because it’s easier for me to go back into my old patterns than it is to continue to move forward. There comes a point in time, it is getting much easier than it used to be. But somebody said to me, do I actually have to do these things like every single day? And I’m like, well, do you think every day? Let me go back to the 60 to 80,000 thoughts a day. You have right. 80 to 90 percent of them are repeated and 90 percent are negative. You are in a lifetime journey, I don’t want to call it a battle, but it is essentially journey of you against you. And you get to decide how you’re going to navigate that and show up in, in life. So, I just want you to know, it’s a very normal process, but it takes and requires a tremendous amount of repetition. In the beginning, when I was trying to change my words from stop saying stuck, I had to, for an hour, I actually would. Write it down. Like how many times did I say it? It didn’t take long before I was like at 50 ticks and I’m like, okay, this is crazy. This is crazy. Look at how much I’m saying this. No wonder I feel this way. So, you do have to consciously see what you’re doing and be willing to look at it. And here’s a really big piece. You have to be able to do that without shaming yourself because the second you shame yourself; you’re not moving forward. You’re not, you’re going to stay exactly where you are. So, I started to almost make a sense of humour with it. It’s like, wow, there we are again, Marsha. We’re obviously doing this again. So, it’s like you’re, or the Mel Robbins use an example of naming that voice as somebody else. So sorry for any Sally’s out there, but you can say, Sally, okay, I hear you. I’m good. I don’t need you right now because you want to recognize it’s a different identity, right? It’s a different identity. It’s a, it’s, it’s a part of you that existed for a long time, but you don’t need it now. And so, making these changes, identity level is like the top. The, the way to create change in your life. As humans, we tend to focus on the environment, making, you know, putting our clothes out, setting the schedule with the gym. Like those are actions. And those are, those are behaviours, which are great, but creating long lasting change is how can you show up as that person, not a fake it tills you make it, but what would she do? And so sometimes I literally have to stop and I’m like, what would the highest version of myself do today in this moment? And like, okay, she would do not what I’m doing right now. She would do something different. So how can I continue to show up as that person in that energy, making those decisions? That’s how we create lasting change.


Ann: I love that. My higher self pitches up. What is she going to do? That’s so empowering. It’s brilliant.


Marsha: Right?  But see, this is the thing. It’s, it’s, it’s the opposite of shame. I can shame myself at any time. I was really good at it for a long time, but choosing the opposite is how you create that. It’s like, what is my higher self doing? And I think that, you know, if we really, I believe in a higher self. I believe my higher self has had my back this whole time. And I think that that’s one part of it is recognizing that I am being guided and I am being supported and I’m allowing myself to have that support. The other thing, if it’s okay, if I can share this, that I think is really important, I’ve learned with NLP is some inner child healing, right? Some really going into some spaces of what I’ve been holding onto, what I’ve been judging myself. And so, a really powerful exercise that anyone can do is take a picture of yourself where you’ve been maybe overcritical, you’ve been judgmental, you’ve been hard on yourself. And it can be a child, right? I’ve done the inner child work with pictures, which is pretty intense. And I have this picture. And if I can share, it was the very first time I shared my talk on stage. I was probably like 30 pounds over where I am right now. I looked really lost. I looked really scared. I forgot my talk on stage. I cried and I was so critical of myself in that moment until I started to do this work. And I’ll tell you, I pulled that picture up. I wrote a thank you letter to my soul. In that picture because I wouldn’t be here today if she didn’t find a way to pull the courage to go out there and talk on stage when it was really crazy, scary, when nobody believed it was a good idea. And that’s, she’s got the, the harness, like, so when I’m doubting myself, I’m like, go back into that picture, Marcia, look at her. How did she have the courage in that moment? And I’m like, it’s in you, you can harness that because she is you. And I learned to let go of those, like, we’re holding on to all those anger, resentment pieces that are affecting us subconsciously. And that is a really powerful exercise to help heal inside of yourself. And knowing that, I’m being guided. And I’m also supporting that inner child at the same time.


Ann: Yeah, that’s just brilliant. It’s so helpful. So useful. You mentioned as well, the tapping, the EFT tapping. Can you explain a little bit about what that is and how that helps?


Marsha: Absolutely. I love EFT tapping. EFT tapping is where we tap on eight different meridian points. So, if you’re listening, you’re like not here, but it’s above the eye. It’s the side of the eye. It’s under the eye. It’s under the nose, chin, collarbone, under the opposite arm, and then two hands on the head. And what happens is, that you, how I teach it, is is that you create a script for something that you want to create, like something you want to do in your life. And you go through this script. It’s like, I want to create, let me just throw an example. Like, say that I want to create more abundance in my life. Cause everybody always loves the word abundance. And so, I want to create that. But what I start with is the languaging in the script is, is that who am I to, like, this is ridiculous. I can’t do it, etcetera. And I say, all of the thoughts that I’m thinking in my head, because I say them out loud. You keep thoughts in your body, they actually have way more power and they’re toxic. You say them and they lose their power. So, I start speaking the words that I’m thinking, that it’s not possible for me. And as I tap through them, I keep saying it. And then I, halfway through, I start to shift the language and it’s like, well, I have this in my life. Like this is where there’s been some abundance. This is where there’s been some growth. Oh wait, I actually am deserving of this. And that’s a short example of it. But what happens as you do that tapping, you are now, it’s like almost like a rewiring happens and your brain is like, you’re right. It is possible for me. I can do this. I can create this. And you, you hear those words, but energetically you actually feel like you’ve had full body acupuncture. You feel this tingling, you feel this energy, and it’s like all of a sudden now your subconscious mind is on board and says, you’re right, we can. You’re absolutely right that we can. And so that’s why I think these tools are very important because they create. Change in the body, like in our physical body. So, our subconscious mind is not our brain. It’s actually our body. We store our emotions in our body. And when you are holding on to those emotions for a long time, it’s amazing. What can happen when you learn how to release them. So, I’m working right now with a number of authors and sharing a vulnerable story. I took them through a vulnerability exercise last week. We took this, we did tapping on Shane. I watched every single one of them. And I just want to share this so that people can see and understand what it does to your body. They had to share one vulnerable story. They then got to receive support from the group. And then I asked them to share what did they receive in the process. And every single person had a visceral reaction trying to let go of something that was vulnerable to them, that they had been holding on to. And so, the reason I say that is it’s like you think you’re holding up to it in your brain. You’re not. Your body is just storing all of this emotional challenge. And so, EFT is a great way to release that energy. And when you can release that energy, you’re now giving your nervous system a chance to be able to grow into the person who can create this change, who can hold what you’re here to create, because if your nervous system does not believe that you can do this, and it’s not on board for you creating this, you’re going to self-sabotage every single time. And that’s what happens, right? People will say, I’m going to own a goal of a thousand dollars a month in sales. You’ll get to 995 or 999 and you will self-sabotage it because you subconsciously don’t believe that you can do it. And so, it’s really about releasing those emotions. Tapping is a great way. There’s a lot of different ways but releasing those emotions in order to support yourself for where you’re going.


Ann: It sounds so powerful, really, really powerful. What does it stand for EFT?


Marsha: Emotional Freedom Technique.


Ann: Ah, thank you. And then the points that you have been showing here by the side of the eye, under the eye, the lip, under the nose, what are those points and why are they specifically used?


Marsha: Oh, and that’s such a great question. And I have to pull up my notes to see exactly what all of the, each one has a has a, has a point like each one has a reason. And I honestly cannot remember right at this moment, but it really is, like this is where we hold a tremendous amount of our emotions is in these eight spots, right? Eight spots is where we’re holding. And so going through them is like having acupuncture on all eight points. A typical tapping session, I say is about 10 minutes. And sometimes it’s like, don’t ever let yourself be held back and think, okay, I don’t have a script. You don’t need a script. You just start talking about what is it that you’re saying to yourself, the words you’re saying to yourself, and then allowing yourself to shift that into the language of where you’re going. Because remember, I cannot say it enough. Our thoughts are only ever replaying the past or creating the future. And so, recognizing your words, catching them, hearing yourself is a way to start to direct them in the direction that you want to go. And you know, people say, well, what about journaling, what about, they’re all good. There’s just so many different tools of what you can do. But if you’re going to journal, what I would say is, I take it the same way. Dump out the emotions of what you’re feeling, right? Write them down. And I mean, don’t filter them. Give yourself about a paragraph. Take a look at the words on the page and ask yourself, is that true? Like, is that true? Am I actually that person? Am I actually that not that deserving? Am I actually, and if it’s like, no, I, that’s not true at all. Okay, great. So, we’ve got the garbage out. Let’s get the garbage out of our system. Because toxic words in our body, they have tremendous power. You put them out into paper, they lose their power. And so, you start to do that. Now, when you’re going to journal, right. As I call it scripting, as if it’s already done. So as if it’s already done, and I do one for the end of every month, I do one for every quarter and I do one for every, for the year. Does it always turn out exactly as I write? No, but sometimes it’s pretty close. And what I do is I script it as my higher self. My higher self is, you know what? She’s making time for herself every day. She’s prioritizing sleep. She’s prioritizing the things that support her. And I write it in present tense as though it’s already done. it’s the end of October and I’m so proud of myself for how I’ve carried myself through so many challenges this month. I’ve been consistent with this. Have I been perfect? No, but perfect was never the goal. And how can I do those things? So even if it’s not tapping, even journaling, for example, is a way to program your words to in the direction that you’re going in.


Ann: And you’re constantly acknowledging your own efforts and your own courage and your own focus.


Marsha: I cannot stress that enough. I really can’t. I mean, again, you could pour into me and I could pour into you if you don’t believe it. And if you don’t allow yourself to receive it, it doesn’t matter. So, you have to find a way to see your wins. And so. In the beginning, a lot of people said to me, you have to write your gratitudes.

I really struggled with that because I was like, gratitude’s look at the gong show I’m living in. When in the world am I grateful for? who would ask for this? That was my mindset. So, gratitude, I couldn’t do it because I felt like I was faking. But what I did instead was I wrote down my wins. My wins that day. My wins. You know what? I went for a walk for half an hour by myself. I sat in my car and listened to a podcast. I did this today. I did this like good for you. Give yourself some celebrations because I’m telling you those wins will start to stack up and they do become gratitudes, but it’s just a different way to get there.


Ann: Yeah, that’s really nice. I really like that. Actually, that’s really good. And I love the fact that, you don’t really false about it. Want to be really, really true, focused about this. Yeah, I love that. And of course, your wins are many Marcia. You’ve got so many things that you’ve done and achieved. You’ve got two podcasts. Have you published six books? Have I got that correct? Seven books. Exactly. Loads of books. Tell us a little bit, what are you working on? What, what you’ve written this wonderful book called why She Stopped Asking Why, tell us perhaps a little bit about that. and where people can find that.


Marsha: Absolutely. So, When She Stopped Asking Why was a title that came to me again, going back to intuition, I decided to write my book in 2016. And I always say, be very careful who you share your ideas with, because if you’re not, solidified on what you’re doing, you’re going to get the opinions of other people and that might not be what you need at the time. So, many people thought it was a terrible idea for me to write a book and I just was like, no, I really believe that I’m supposed to do this and intuition, strong, clear. And I sat down and so I started writing and I wanted to share my journey. The intention was, how can I support somebody who has never even walked my path? That was my intention all along. Yes, it’s a parent who was dealing with teen substance abuse, but it was really about a parent who had to find her way when the path was gone. Like the plan I had for my life was gone. And, and I had to release a lot of things to learn how to move forward. And so that was where the book came from, but all of the key points of writing the title, the intro, the exit, the forward, the dedication, all came from quiet times and downloads. That was when I started to really become more in tune with my intuition. And I went to my publisher and I said, When She Stopped Asking Why she goes, no, it’s way too long of a title. I’m like, nope, I like it. And that’s what we’re doing. And the reason is, is because that’s when my life changed, when I stopped asking why. The why was killing me. And when you are standing in a space of replaying the past and asking why, that’s a victim mindset, and I know it well, I spent many years there, but no change ever comes from victim mindset, none. And instead, the what, when I would catch myself saying why, like why only matters if I’m moving towards a goal. Instead, I’d be like, okay, the why doesn’t matter. It’s what, like, what can you do right now? What is an action word? And I’d ask myself questions, Marcia, what can you do right now? Well, you can listen to podcasts, you can move, you can do these things. And it’s, that was a transformational time for me. So that is the book. And then again, over the last couple of years, it’s just been helping people reaching out who say, can you help me share a difficult, vulnerable story? Some of the stories I’ve had on the podcast have been everything. They’re not light. They’re not light at all. and that lights me up. I just, I love having people share vulnerable stories because I know they’re helping so many other people. Our stories reach far further than we could ever imagine. And so the podcast has grown like crazy last year, we released, another collaborative book called Everybody Holds a Story. And that’s actually based on our podcast, our second podcast. That book came to be in 2020 when I lost my job. Quick story, but I lost my job. I was in, the hospital having a fairly emergency back surgery during the pandemic, almost died twice and had a moment where I saw myself in bed. And I remember saying, this is not how it ends. you are, stop, you need to fight. And it was clear as could be. So, we knew we had to do something with that story. So that story came into Everybody Holds a Story. And we helped 15 authors to write and share their difficult stories. And so now it’s literally what I’m doing is I run a mastermind called Write Your Damn Book where I’m helping people to learn how to share vulnerable stories. They’re all very vulnerable, like crazy, powerful stories. And we are branching. We’ve just signed our first publishing client where we are going to be helping them to publish their book, because I’ve had a lot of experience in the publishing field, seeing a lot of ways that I don’t love how it’s done and decided that we want to do it differently. And then I created a coaching certification called Outspoken because why not Outspoken? That’s what I was told for my whole life, but the coaching certification is the NLP certification. And I take those tools and bring them into writing your book too, because we are conditioned to believe that we just need more strategy for everything. And strategy going back to conscious mind is literally only five to 10 percent of what you can do and create. you can buy all the programs, do all the things with strategy. If you don’t believe that you are worthy of it or that you can create it yourself, you can never out hustle or outwork a limiting belief. So, the NLP tools come into everything that I do because I just, I’ve learned first-hand how powerful they are.


Ann: It’s just brilliant. It’s so brilliant. Your podcast has done so well. Your podcast is called Own Your Choices Own Your Life and I know it’s in the top 2 percent of the most popular shows out there across the globe out of three and a quarter million podcasts. I think you’re out there now. So, to be in the top 2 percent fantastic. Yeah. Huge, huge congratulations to you for that. Um, if people want to look you up, Marsha, perhaps book a session with you, coaching session, etcetera. How do they find you?


Marsha: I’ve made it very easy because my last name is long. So, it’s Marsha Van W. Everywhere you go, it’s Marsha Van W. If you start typing my name in Google, it’ll all come up there. there’s not a lot of Marsha Van Wynsberg’s, which is great actually. but it’s, that’s how you find it. And that’s my website. And I’m active on social media. So, it’s an easy way to connect. Or, if you’re not sure, just start listening to podcasts. You’ll hear a little bit more about what I’m about and what I feel I know I’m here to do.


Ann: I think it’s beautiful. I think something that’s really stuck with me there as you were talking about the book, and how you wanted to do it your way cause you didn’t like the way other people had done it. I think that’s something really to be treasured because if you do have such a sensitive story that you want to share, you want to make sure you’re sharing it with someone who’s going to treat that story with the greatest of respect.


Marsha: Hmm. That’s such a good point. I think the one thing I am known for and I learned the hard way is is that you have to find a way to share a vulnerable story and leave everyone in integrity. That was very important to me to learn how to do, is how to leave them in integrity. And I’ve always done that with my kids. Like my, my boys are my best teachers. There’s no question, but it’s leaving everyone in integrity because if you don’t leave others in integrity, it actually doesn’t reflect on them and it reflects on you. And it doesn’t leave the message that I don’t, I don’t believe that’s what people want to do. And if you’re in a victim mindset, it’s really hard to share a story and leave others in integrity. So, it takes time and it takes work, but that’s really what it comes down to. And like I said, we just had so many bad experiences. I resisted for so long publishing. my team, my friends are laughing so hard because they’re like, Marcia, we’ve been saying this for years now, you need to do this. But I’ve resisted it until this year I’ve had multiple strangers reach out and say, can you, I think you’re somebody who can help me write my book. And I’m like, I don’t even have that available anywhere. I’m not selling it. I’m not doing it. And finally, it was like, okay, I think the universe is saying, will you just please listen? Just listen and follow through. I know you don’t know what to do, but it’s not the first time in your life you don’t know what to do. I need you to trust. And that’s where we’re doing, so that’s what we’re doing now. But I just want to share that to be real because it certainly is never this straight road that it’s like I’ve got it all figured out and it’s easy. Oh my god no, I fight myself every day. Literally every day. I just see it now.


Ann: Yeah, I think that’s really great and I always like to look at it like it’s driving at night-time. You’re setting off on a journey and you’re just waiting for the road to be lit up and it will only light up the next little bit. It won’t light up your entire journey. It will just do the little bit in front of you.


Marsha: Oh, so glad you said that. I love that because I just had a conversation with a client this morning and she’s like, I need to know what all the next steps are. And I’m like, well, I don’t know who you’re going to ask because you’re not going to get that. Like, what’s your next step? Like what’s the next one? And I actually don’t think you can make the decisions after that until you make that first one. That’s right. I think you can’t make decisions.


Ann: That’s right. And I think by making that first step, you make things happen because you’ve taken that first step and that’s the, um, the factor that makes the other things fall into place.


Marsha: Oh, I love that you said. I couldn’t agree more. I often say we are so funny as humans. We’re walking in this hallway where there’s all these closed doors and we’re trying to figure out like what’s the perfect door to open. And we stand there. Some people stand in the hallway for their whole life and never open a door. And it’s like, what’s the perfect door? And it’s like, there’s crap behind every single door. Like, no matter what decision you make, there’s going to be challenges. But there’s also going to be beautiful things, beautiful people. And I, I don’t know where I would be without, actually, I’m not sure again I would be here. The people who are in my life now, because of some of those first steps, because of being vulnerable, because of allowing myself to connect with others, it’s been life changing. Like, life, life changing for me. So, I know it’s possible.


Ann: And I just want to say thank you to your children for being your greatest teachers. And they’ve been our greatest teachers as well through, they don’t even know that, but they’re teaching through what experiences they’ve had that you’ve met with them. And come on to this podcast to share with. My listeners, everyone’s learning from them. So, I just want to say thank you. And I hope that things are really good now for your family.


Marsha: You know what? Thank you so much for saying that. That is so beautiful. I guess I never looked at it that way. It’s, yes, we definitely have learned and grown. I can say by doing this work and sharing, it allowed me to heal, let go of resentment, to love them for who they were, let them learn in life, and has, if I, we actually just had this conversation the other day with our one son, and like, if I, Could go back 10 years, I never in a million years would have expected that we could be sitting and having an open conversation, very real and raw and supporting them in where they’re at and what they’re doing. And I think that’s a blessing. That’s a massive blessing because I have a better relationship with them now than I ever, ever, ever did. So, again, another lesson we have to do the work on ourselves first, so that we can bring that best version. So, I will never take credit for the changes that they’ve made in their life because they’ve done that. Like I, it’s important to me that they, they get to own that. It’s not my win. I think that’s a big mistake a lot of parents make, and I’m sorry if that triggers anyone. But we get, we get this badge of honour that I did a good job and I think it’s really important that we let them take their wins and their, I don’t, I don’t even like failures or losses or mistakes, it’s just both sides, right? Let them take that, but in doing so, like you’re letting them grow up and being able to figure life out on their own when they hit challenges, because you know, they’re going to, they’re going to.


Ann: Yeah, that’s really beautiful. God bless them and God bless you. Marsha Vanwynsberghe, thank you so much for joining us here today. It’s been brilliant talking to you.


Marsha: Thank you so much for having me. And I love this conversation.


Ann: What a fantastic guest, Marsha Vanwynsberghe. If you would like to know more about her, please look below. I will have all her links and URLs that will lead you directly to her work. Thank you so very much for listening to Psychic Matters. I will see you in the next episode.


Don: You have been watching the Psychic Matters podcast with Ann Théato, the only podcast to push forward the boundaries of human consciousness to redefine the significance of living. Subscribe now so you don’t miss future episodes.

Ann: I know that you will join me in extending our heartfelt gratitude to Marsha Vanwynsberghe for sharing her remarkable journey and insights with us. I hope you have found inspiration in Marsha’s story of empowerment, resilience, and the profound wisdom woven into life’s intricate tapestry. Remember, the lessons uncovered in this episode are not just for today but enduring guides for your own transformative journeys. Join me again soon for more captivating conversations that illuminate the pathways to personal growth and empowerment. Until then, may you continue to navigate life’s complexities with courage, strength, and the resilience that lies within each of you. Thank you for being a part of our podcast community.

If you’d like to connect with Marsha or find out more about her work, be sure to check out the links in the show notes, which include a full transcript.

Don’t forget to subscribe to the new YouTube channel, so you can watch this episode too!

My name is Ann Théato and thank you for listening to Psychic Matters.



Reach by Christopher Lloyd Clarke. Licensed by Enlightened Audio.


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